I confess, on my early travels, that I used to race around to tick off all the tourist attractions. When I lived abroad, though, I very quickly learnt that value of also spending time just wandering, or saying yes to random invitations, or simply going somewhere that might be on a map but not in any tourist attraction lists.
Celebrating these kind of unexpected experiences is what this episode of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is all about – enjoy!
Show notes: Episode 259 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast
Being Less Tourist, More Traveller
Focusing away from the big tourist attractions and being more open to just seeing what comes your way when you travel is one way we can be “less tourist, more traveller”, and this episode includes several stories which are wonderful examples of what happens when you do just that.
First up, I chat with Kate Peterson about an experience she had in Greece. While it starts off being a tale of everything going wrong, Kate explains that she learnt a lot from his and ends up having a very special experience in a cafe.
I then talk to Paula Morgan about a time when an elderly man in Penang taught her about the value of just saying yes to opportunities that present themselves unexpectedly, even if you feel a bit suspicious of them.
Finally, travel writer Tim Richards discusses the idea that it’s the things that you don’t ordinarily expect will make it into published travel stories that are often the experiences which make the best stories.
Links:
- Kate Peterson’s Art
- Kate’s travel journal Around the World and Back Again
- Paula Morgan of Sydney Expert
- Tim Richards’ website I, Writer
- Tim Richards’ new book Heading South
- Join our Facebook group for Thoughtful Travellers
- Join our LinkedIn group for Thoughtful Travellers
Transcript
Amanda Kendle 0:00
Hello, and welcome to episode 259 of the Thoughtful Travel podcast. Today’s episode is titled ‘Being less tourist more traveler’. Now I don’t want to spark a whole tourist versus traveler debate, it’s an argument that’s rehashed constantly around the internet. And I actually think you can be tourist one day and traveler the next, or a bit of a mix. I don’t think we need to be so definitive about it. But what I’m trying to get across, and what this episode is all about is when we let go of seeing particular things and go about our travels, just sort of saying yes to different things. More intentionally going where the rest of the people aren’t going, maybe taking some degree of risk, I suppose, in terms of not going out one day with specific plans to see a particular tourist attraction and just taking what comes. So I really like to embrace this approach. When I travel, I don’t always do it, because sometimes I want to see the famous things – there’s a reason why they’re well known. And sometimes I really do want to experience those as well. But I guess I especially did this being ‘less tourist more traveler’ thing when I was living abroad. Because typically, that means you have a lot more time in a place, doesn’t it? I am reminded of when I lived in Bratislava. And because of the nature of my work, I was teaching business English, and I would often teach in the early morning, maybe at lunchtime, maybe in the afternoon, you know, late afternoon, early evening, the typical times that lessons would be at people’s companies. And so I had weird amounts of time off at weird times. And I had a city-wide transport pass that my employer provided. And so one thing I did was, I decided fairly early on, I would ride all of the tram lines from end to end. I kept a little notebook to make sure I did, but you know, going out to the end of the tram lines, sometimes I would hop off if I saw something interesting. Or I would get to the far Terminus and have a look around. And you know, just got to see these places that most people wouldn’t normally see. And I felt I got to understand Bratislava a lot better by doing that. So that’s just one example, I suppose, of being less tourist more traveler. And in today’s episode, I’ve got three people who have stories that reflect this kind of approach, and how much doing travel in this way rewarded them. So my first guest is Kate Peterson and her story takes place in Greece where she actually lived for a year teaching. So similar to my Bratislava story, in fact, but before Kate told me this story, she explained that she’s a real Type A personality. She really likes planning and detailed plans. But she moved to Greece, and she realized Greece doesn’t fit the Type A planning. The story she tells me is about a trip she took on her own to the island of Lesbos, and she had planned the trip down to the minute. But as you can probably imagine, nothing really worked out as it was supposed to, but – spoiler alert – this turned out to be a good thing.
Kate Peterson 3:50
It was early in my stay in Greece, and I had yet to learn from experience. And so as a result, I had planned out every single day of the trip in advance, like down to the moment, and I knew exactly where I wanted to go for day trips. I had these crisp, beautiful printed out bus timetables, and I knew how I was going to get to each place and everything was tucked in a little folder, kind of the whole deal. And at the time, I was actually also training for a half marathon. So I had planned a distance run for a certain day with a certain mileage and time. Well, when I got to Lesbos – predictably looking back – pretty much everything went wrong almost immediately.
Amanda Kendle 4:32
I’m not actually surprised to hear this.
Kate Peterson 4:33
Yes, exactly. So the bus schedule turned out to be completely different from what I had found online, not only for the times, but even for the destinations themselves, because it turned out to be a seasonal schedule, and I was there in the off-season. So there were only two other towns that were reachable from where I was staying. And one of them I would only be able to visit for an hour in order to catch the bus back to Mytilini, the town that I was staying in. So I was trying to get my game face on and plan everything from scratch when it came time to do my training run, which was an absolute disaster. So running on Greek roads can be really challenging. Because these towns and cities were all planned out so long ago, so the roads are often quite narrow. Sometimes there’s not sidewalks, so I did my best to plan a good route. But I found myself on this really narrow, winding road with trucks sort of careening past around these blind corners blaring their horns at me as I’m running along. And then it starts pouring rain, of course, right? Cool. Then I come upon this pack of stray dogs. And they started chasing me, of course. So at one point, I’m running along, and I find myself kind of holding back tears right as I’m absolutely soaked to the skin, nearly run over by a semi truck, attacked by wild dogs, all with no idea of what to do with the rest of my time there because the bus schedule has completely destroyed the plans that I had. So I took that time that night to regroup. And the next day, I woke up with a determination to just make the most of the day, no matter what it would bring. And since the bus schedule seemed pretty much determined to take me to this town called Agua, since it was the only town that I could visit for more than an hour, I decided ‘why not? Let’s give it a shot. Let’s see, see what happens’. And I feel like looking back on it over time, my time in Greece really taught me so much about going with the flow, and being present and not worrying so much. And I feel like this was one of the best examples of that, because in the end, I was rewarded for completely tossing my plans out the window with one of my most treasured travel memories of all time, this little town – that I ended up in totally by chance, which wasn’t even originally on my list of where I had wanted to go – turned out to be this just wonderfully authentic, kind of rarely visited, absolutely genuine little corner of the island. And it was pretty cold that time of year because I was there in the off-season. So I spent the first hour just sort of blissfully wandering around in the cold and enjoying the little small town peculiarities I was finding around each corner. And finally there came a point where I was absolutely freezing. And I just really wanted a cup of Greek coffee, as happens to people when they’re traveling in Greece, right? As is, often the case in Greece – at least while I was there, this was 10 years ago so I don’t know if it’s changed at this point – but every cafe that I could find was pretty much packed with Greek men and only men.
I remember from my time in Greece when I was nine years old, so many decades ago, that’s exactly my mental picture of it. So it hasn’t changed again, in the intervening decades since you were there.
Yeah, so it really felt like for the most part, many of the traditional cafes, at least, were a masculine zone, and to enter without an invitation as a young American female traveler on her own, just would have felt really inappropriate. I’m all for trailblazing, but in the right time and place. This was not a time for such trailblazing; it really would have felt like I would have been more of a blundering tourist instead of a real traveler. So I kept walking and walking. And finally I passed this cafe that appeared to have women in it. So I cautiously stepped inside. And to my delight, the only people inside the cafe were three older women. And there was this little wood stove with a fire and piles of kindling next to it. It was exactly what I was looking for. So I walk in, and the women stop talking and look at me, and there’s the silence. And I was sort of prepared to like, drink my coffee fast and leave if I was getting vibes that I was intruding. So I very tentatively said in Greek that I would like a coffee, please. And at this, they were absolutely delighted, that I hadn’t just asked for directions and left, which is what I think they assumed when they saw me – as I am very clearly not Greek with my bright red hair. Like there’s no way. And also, I think just being able to speak even a little bit of Greek opened a door with them. So looking back, it seems like that was maybe the first test to gain their trust was, okay, I had spoken a little bit of Greek, then the second test came when I ordered my coffee. Now, when you order a traditional coffee in Greece, many people who aren’t used to it find it to be really bitter and want it to be more sweet, right? So the typical way to order it is Metro, which means medium sweet, and I actually liked the coffee best when it’s totally plain with no sugar, which is kind of unusual for a traveler. And the word for that is scatto which is really fun to say and order. In this case, in this little cafe in this little town, when I said I wanted my coffee scatto it was like that was the password. These three women were clearly just absolutely delighted and immediately waved me in and offered me a seat. When they said that, I assumed that they meant that it was okay to sit down in general while I waited for my coffee. So I went to sit at another table, they started waving their arms frantically in the air and indicating that I should sit with them instead, which, of course, I very happily did. And the oldest of the women seemed to be the owner of the cafe, or at least was involved with the establishment somehow. So she made my coffee and brought it over. And then we just chatted in Greek for like an hour. It was amazing. I mean, I certainly didn’t understand everythin, far from it. They seemed to be pretty wonderfully unaccustomed to talking with foreigners. So they didn’t use a single English word. And even when I said, ‘Oh, I’m sorry, I don’t understand’ they didn’t even speak more slowly. So the conversation was kind of slow going, but I was in there and trying to hold my own. And it offered me an amazing chance to practice my Greek.
How much Greek could you speak, Kate?
So at that point, not very much at all, I’d only been there for a few months. And even by the time I left, I could only get by in present tense. I didn’t know anything. So you find yourself saying things like ‘I go to the store yesterday’, you know, that kind of thing. But it gets across?
Amanda Kendle 11:24
People understand.
Kate Peterson 11:25
Yeah, yeah. So they asked, and I explained what I was doing in Greece. And we talked about the weather. And I had some little pictures of Montana, which is where I’m from here in the American West, that I had in my wallet. And so I showed them those. And I learned all about their families. And one of their sisters was living in Astoria in New York, which famously has a really lively Greek community. So she was telling me all about that. And then one of them brought out a big hunk of koulouri, which is like a bread that’s covered in sesame seeds. And she tears off this huge chunk and hands it to me, and that felt like such a triumph. I mean, it felt like she was handing me like a lump of gold. I was just so grateful for this experience. And the kindness of these women, feeling like they had invited me into their social circle for even just an hour, it was just one of the most wonderful feelings as I was just barely starting to crack the code on the Greek way of life, but feeling rather alone on a trip that had been really confusing and challenging. And it felt like they were offering me a slice of the real Greece and also their real lives too, you know. It was like they were treating me as if they had known me before. And I think that was the first experience that really cemented my love of Greece.
Amanda Kendle 12:43
So admittedly, Kate didn’t set out to have this kind of ‘traveler, not tourist’ experience initially; Greece just conspired against her plans. And she ended up in a random place, but she learned a lot from that. And I love that story. Sounds like a delightful experience in the cafe with all those old Greek women. Now, my next guest is Paula Morgan. And funnily enough, there is also food and older people in this story, that’s perhaps a common theme in being a ‘traveler, not a tourist’, I’m not sure. But I’ll let Paula tell you the story.
Paula Morgan 13:22
We’re in Penang, we tend to go on holiday to one place and stay for a week or two weeks, rather than rush around everywhere. So we’re in Penang for I think about 10 days. I was casing it out to see if it’s summer I thought I could live for a little while. It wasn’t – it was too hot. Other than that, it was fabulous.
Amanda Kendle 13:43
I agree. I love Penang except for the weather.
Paula Morgan 13:46
I couldn’t do it. The humidity is just really hard. But the company I was working for had a school in Malaysia, and I had a lot of Malaysian friends. So I had this huge list of foodie tips. And we had been eating our way around the city for a good week, and not walking very much because it’s too hot. So I was a bit concerned about how that was going to end up. Finally, one morning, we just wanted to go and eat something familiar. So we decided we’d go out for yum cha, we’d seen this spot around the corner from our apartment so thought ‘we’ll go there and we’ll just have some yum cha. It’s not going to be different, and it’ll be fun.’ So it was a weekday, it wasn’t like a particularly busy day and we walked into this sort of local looking restaurant, and we were the only people in the room that looked like they were visitors. But you know, it’s always hard to tell in a city like Penang. And we sat down and after about five minutes, this old gentleman walked up to our table and he said ‘I’d really like it if you would join me for breakfast’. And straightaway I’m thinking he’s going to scam us, what does he want? Is he gonna take a bag? Is he trying to get us to buy his breakfast? You know what’s going on? And Charlie and I looked at each other and we’re like, okay, let’s just go and have lunch. He walked away and let us think about it. So we went over and joined him and he had moved to a bigger table. And he had a woman with him who was his travel companion. And he spoke perfect English. And he told us, he was also in his 80s, I seem to attract 80 year old men. And he said the reason he invited us to eat with him was he likes to speak English, and he doesn’t get that many opportunities now that he’s stopped traveling. So we ended up having this really fabulous meal where he kept ordering special dishes from the kitchen. And, you know, no expense was spared. And I’m still thinking is every time they stamp the yum cha card, how much am I going to pay for this?
Amanda Kendle 15:43
Yeah, what’s the catch for this good experience?
Paula Morgan 15:45
So well, I’m like, there has to be a catch. But there really wasn’t, you know, he just wanted to talk about his first visit to Italy, and what it was like visiting China in 1960-something, and it was just a really lovely day. And then at the end, he paid for everything.
Amanda Kendle 16:03
Oh, my goodness, even nicer.
Paula Morgan 16:06
I’m thinking you’re a horrible person, because you just thought this man was going to be, you know, trying to score a free ride. And he was just genuinely lovely. So I think that really opened me up to being a little bit less cautious when I travel. Like, you have to be sensible but really, the chances of something going wrong when you’re sitting in a restaurant are pretty slim.
Amanda Kendle 16:31
Yes, exactly.
Paula Morgan 16:33
I just thought it was a good lesson for me at the time.
Amanda Kendle 16:37
I love this. And I know my experience of Penang is that the locals are very friendly, too. But I have not had the pleasure of being invited to join a random local for for a meal. In fact, I don’t know anywhere. Actually, I can’t actually think of a situation where that’s happened to me and I’m feeling a bit jealous. So I’m going to have to seek it out, I think or perhaps I can do the reverse and invite some random stranger to to eat with me in my hometown. Anyway, I’ll give that some thought. Now, my final guest today is Tim Richards. In the middle of our chat, we also get to the point about restaurants and tourist restaurants and non-tourist restaurants. So there’s a there’s a running theme. But before that – for context – we started chatting about Tim’s Laws of Train Travel. He’s written a book recently called Heading South about train travel around Australia. And from that we kind of segued into talking about his experiences, as well as traveling as a travel writer. And that’s where we cottoned on to this idea of thinking about the things that are not the obvious things to do when we travel.
Tim Richards 17:50
It just goes to show as a travel writer, the number of times where I have said – foolishly – I’ve said, ‘Oh, this thing I’m doing right now, I’ll never write about this, so I won’t bother taking any notes’. And honestly, the number of times!The reason that you just mentioned that, is I was on the Shinkansen trains in Japan on that trip. I came in from Korea from Busan to Fukuoka, which is in the West, and ended up catching two Shinkansens to Tokyo eventually. And the Shinkansens were great, but I thought, ‘Well, I haven’t been commissioned to write about them. I’m not sure when I would write about them. I won’t make any notes’. And sure enough, I’ve just started the second book this year, it’s for Hardy Grant called Ultimate Train Journeys World. And there’s a whole section on Shinkansens and I borrowed heavily on – luckily – the photos I took, and my memories and so on, and I wish I’d written my notes. But also in Tokyo, my last night in Tokyo, I went to one of those cool little bars in the Golden Gai district near Shinjuku. And it was called Death Match In Hell, and it’s a heavy metal bar. So seven seats – there was me and a couple of other people, the barman, a lot of heavy metal gear. And they were selling shots of a Japanese whiskey, I think, the 666 yen, so it’s about $8. And I was just tossing this back. I was quite drunk. And I was weaving back through Shinjuku and weirdly, I had made a few notes on my phone, I didn’t have my notebook as I’d packed everything. Yep, and I took some photos. But I thought ‘Oh I’ll never write about that.’ But of course I’ve written about that twice. I can barely remember it.
Never say never. You never know which bits are going to be the experiences that suddenly later become important.
I think this should be another one of my ‘laws of travel’ – Is always always always write notes about things, even if you don’t think you’re ever going to write about it, because you probably will. I was gonna say – just to go off the track a little bit or to expand on that – [my rule to] never buy coffee from a train station, is that I was reading you should never eat food in a tourist zone, a tourist traps like Leicester Square in London. I read this great popular economics book – I can’t recall the title – a few years ago, and it explained why. I mean, it’s sort of obvious in a way. But the point is, that say you take somewhere like Leicester Square where the tourists are all going to flock, no matter what? Then two types of restaurants you could say, good ones and bland ones, right? The point is, there’s no great [ones]. The problem is, the tourists lack information, they don’t live there. They don’t really know what’s good or bad. They will just go with whatever’s cheap or whatever looks flashy, right. So there’s no great reason for a good restaurant – they won’t get any more customer than a bad restaurant – they’re better off going to a neighborhood where there are locals who can get to know them and give them their favorite. If they charge more, they’ll sell less anyway, because no one knows whether they’re good or bad. So in a way, you just end up by default with all the bland mediocre restaurants in one place. So it was quite interesting, I thought. That’s true, isn’t it? So it’s a good reason. I am always trying – with my schtick as a traveler writer – is to avoid not just tourist traps, but even the obvious story topics and the obvious districts. I tried to think ‘what is it in this city that does not conform to the normal stereotypes of the city?’ One of my favorite days in Quebec city in Canada, I had one day to kill. I’ve done all my sheduled work. That night, I was catching the sleeper train round to Halifax, Nova Scotia. What am I going to do today? And I found this neighborhood called Saint-Roch, which is down on the flat area below the hilly part of Quebec City. And it was an old neighborhood, that being working class was a bit rundown, but just had started to have IT companies moving in. And so the main street, which was Rue Saint-Joseph Est had become this kind of foodie street, but there were no tourists there at all. I spent a whole day just eating food and talking to the guy running the fish shop. We interviewed him, went to the bistro and had coffee. And I ended up with this great article that was like the Eat Street that tourists don’t know about. It was a great story. And I had a lot of fun. I love that sort of story. So I think it’s good to stay away from the really obvious, whatever it is that’s obvious about that place. And that’s partly why I like Eastern Europe, because even after all these years after the Berlin Wall falling, I still find people just go to Western Europe first. And they overlook the east, and almost everything there is interesting, and almost everything there has not been done by anyone. There hasn’t been over done.
Amanda Kendle 22:33
And then we come full circle back to Eastern Europe, where I started telling you about my time in Bratislava. I actually went on to discuss that with Tim. I said, it’s almost 20 years since I was living in Slovakia. And yet, it’s still a really rare destination for people and it’s just such a beautiful place and so much to see and do. So it’s a funny thing. So hopefully we can all keep this in mind, as we travel in the future and be really open to just seeing what’s out there; not always having a plan today, not really focusing always on the sights we think we should see, or even the sights we want to see. But also just having a wander, being open to sharing a meal or paying attention to the little things that are different. And that maybe will be the real story that you want to tell once you come home.
So thank you very much for listening to Episode 259 of the thoughtful travel podcast. A huge thank you, of course, to all my guests, Kate Peterson, Paula Morgan and Tim Richards. Bye for now.
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